Do you think it's important to know about the REAL history of witchcraft? - Comments

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Do you think it's important to know about the REAL history of witchcraft? - Comments

Poll: Do you think it's important to know about the REAL history of witchcraft?

yea – 22 votes
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nope – 1 vote
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some subjects in it – 1 vote
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there is history? – 0 votes
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I think it is very important even now only the victors write the history book as they perceive it.
 Like now the history books show people conquering other lands and people in say they were fighting for freedom or their god

 But if you ask the losers they will say they were attacked by hideous terrorist who came to murder their children and women and steal their land
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I do believe it's important but I also believe understanding the difference between what is various bits of lore and what is verifiable history through understanding more about social psychology and archaeology as well.  
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Throughout time people have learned from & used WC to honor & preserve life. The Craft seems to have evolved through every culture on the planet & wears many disguises. There's oodles of cross cultural threads and parallel developments, & not just one single history. Its interwoven. The things you'll do, the places you'll go…Ref. cat in the hat.

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Its very Important to know what happened in the Old Times as we can learn from mistakes of the past and try to correct them mistakes.   sadly though there is so much History that has been lost in time and books burned and we are left to puck up the pieces and try to make sense of what was lost its a Huge Puzzle but at lest we have help we are not alone and that's a great relief..

 We may never know what truly   happened in the past but the craft grows and changes to fit the times we live is  and that's a great source of Power and magick  
Blessed Be    
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History teaches us much. As nature and the universe changes so do we. In my opinion, alot of people become interested in the Craft due to the appeal of reconnecting to our primordial nature's as a path of self discovery. Rituals and magick are the vehicles to do so.
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I'm not sure that is even in question. I believe most people feel the real history is important. I think the real question is, what is the real history?  It needs to be able to track with up with general history and science. Many want to go with lore which is not entirely factual, and trying to figure out which parts are factual can be tricky at best, darn near impossible at worst.  Citing sources is important. So is tracking the sources of those sources. That often gets lost in all this.
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I've thought about this a lot over the past 30 years. I'll contribute my view here.

#0: Usually when I share my view of any matter which may have a measure of consequence to the reader or user of the post I write or software I create, it really pisses them off. So take everything I do and say with a grain of salt, and don't allow it to bug you. That's why I rarely attended the chats in any serious dialog; my views just piss people off. In the beginning as the end, we're all right and we're all wrong. Life is a journey. Hold tight, If you can't get some good footing, yer fucked and you need better shoes.

#1: Yer fucked and you need better shoes. Witchcraft has no theological history. By that, I mean that Witchcraft has no legacy, no tradition, no time line connected by a coherent and related set of familiar events. Witchcraft is a method and set of tools used to communicate with God/dess, Angels et. al., and parasitic entities. I see no difference between a Christian prayer and a Witches invocation/Spell. There never existed any sect of Witches that practised Witchcraft through any lineage in any recognized theology. Until NOW (but I'll get to that in a moment). Civilization has become sufficiently successful, stable, and resilient, such that norms and laws protect religious freedoms mostly uniformly. Because of these protections and because of the acknowledgement of the value in diversity as a virtue, people are free to not only live, but thrive, be fruitful, and multiply, regardless of their religion (Genesis 1 : 22 ). I loved Raven Grimassi's book, Italian Witchcraft, and I absolutely appreciate his research, but I believe folk magick is indigenous to human beings and is organically discerned, but not necessacerily traditionaly transmitted. God/dess gives us magick according to our faith, not our mankind, so I disqualify Witchcraft as a history. What is the history of water?

#2: What is the history of water? Some say that Wicca is the only popularly recognized Pagan (non-Abrahamic) religion that utilizes Witchcraft as her requisite set of tools. Wicca, the religion, will cement into history (indeed, it already has), Witchcraft, as the mystio-spiritual toolset used by practising Witches, provided there is a cohesive effort by those Witches to recognize the eight pillars of integrity listed in The Charge of the Goddess. You can't have one without the other. If you don't believe Wicca is the only sociological or theocratical path forward for The Witches, then I believe you have become a victim of circumstance, and I challenge you to show me another legitimate path forward for The Witches. Hedgewitchery will last not much more than one generation, as witnessed by history, but a proper religion can be timeless. I have always witnessed that a Spell requires 3 things to be successful; Faith, Intention, and Ritual. These happen to be the same 3 components of any intimate prayer in an Abrahamic service (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism). There is nothing new under the sun.

#3: There is nothing new under the sun, (Ecclesiastes 1: 9). Quran 50: 16 (Islam) says that God/dess is closer to you than your own neck vein. In Quran 7: 40 it says "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man (an arogant man) to enter the kingdom of God." What does Witchcraft have to say of such matters? Nothing, because Witchcraft is not a religion or lineage or tradition, but an understanding of the magickal world we continue to be blessed to experience and express. Another book I have that I dearly love is Introduction to St. Thomas Aquinas (The Summa Theologica, The Summa Contra Gentiles). This is a 700 page book that attempts to answer questions about God/dess, the nature of God/dess, and of man. Even remotely, there is no such equivalent in the Pagan world. In fact, there are ten thousand more Christian, Sufi, and Eastern publications that express the yearning to know and serve God/dess that I won't mention here, but there is certainly no such Pagan equivilant. "The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The named is the mother of ten thousand things." (Taoism). So what the fuck?

#4: So what the fuck? What is the value of life? Why do we select one religion over another? And where's the tradition? (history) Aside from cultural reasons and the foisting of ways and means, how does a particular religion answer to our problems and help us to come to terms with suffering? (because, in case you didn't know, suffering is the atomic essence and question in Hinduism that runs shit you care about). In Wicca we say that you have no destiny other than the one you work toward. In fact, to the detest of the fatalist Christians, Jews, and Moslems, the Wiccan God/dess desires only that you understand that your life is a challenge (suffering), but that God/dess is with you always in your fight to make the world a better place then was given to you. In Wicca, the fight (struggle) is about others, not you. Certainly it is well known in the ancient texts that God/dess made us in the form of the God/dess. Genesis 1: 26 says "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." As a reminder, when we read the word "man" in the ancient texts, it refers to men AND women, plural and together as one (Elohim). To my point, to recuse ourselves, as Witches, from history, in order to differentiate ourselves, would be a catastrophic failure of logic and of our faith in God/dess and our living history, and indeed, in the recent body of the recognition and reinvigoration of the tools supplied by the God/dess (Witchcraft) and the body of the Witches in a orthodox Wicca. It is my position that The Witches should be not peasants in a flock answering to some king (Abrahamic), but instead, kings and queens of a tribe that raises peasants to be kings and queens (Wicca), and to adopt and transcend the lessons of the Abrahamic religions. Wicca, in my opinion, is a NEW path that acknowledges the past, but is free to create the future without repercussions from the consequence of some Abrahamic God/dess. You are not a slave; You are a leader, if you decide to be. (Charge of the Goddess) It is up to you to decide whether or not you will create things for others, or if you will use things others create, for both are required to fill the cup. In any event, God/dess is always with you, and even your Angels and Others, but hell and torment will not be found in your future, because in Wicca, it is recognized that you are already and only heavenly, and it is with faith that we look to you to be in service to those without. Your work certainly implicates the word of the God/dess because you are They. "The Witches should worship the Gods as is their due, and obey their will. For the worship of the Gods is good for the Witches even as the worship of the Witches is good for the Gods: For the Gods love all their Witches." – Moss Bliss

#5: The Gods love all their Witches. If you think you can separate Witchcraft from the Abrahamic religions, you're fibbing to yourself, and that really is an Abrahamic sin. Witches are not that unique. A more positive way to phrase it is that we Witches are delightfully and wonderfully similar to all other religious paths in our longing to be one with God/dess, but that we demand morality and ethics greater than the Abrahamic faiths. If you do not, you are fucked, end of story. In fact, if you will not take a stand for morality and ethics, then you are an antichrist subject to the losses and humiation suffered by all sinners, and you have no place in Wicca. Magick is prolific and resonates in all things. In other words, Witches are humans that realize they are in a Magickal and Divine world. We live, we die, and we suffer, and on occasion, we witness, realize, and propogate that we are part of the Magick of God/dess. Be very, very, grateful for this opportunity. You are so very unique, and you are so very much part of an amazing family; the humans, which have always belonged to God/dess because you have been "made in our image". As Cheryl Strayed said, "To know that seeing the fish beneath the surface of the water was enough. That it was everything. It was my life–like all lives, mysterious and irrevocable and sacred. So very close, so very present, so very belonging to me. How wild it was to let it be." God/dess will always be with and in you, but it will be your challenge in this life to discover the eminent wealth in this brief encounter, not to receive, but to provide. For most of history, Christians have believed that they are born sinners. The Christians have recently adopted astrology, dream visions of prophecy, and other divinations to support their theological positions and especially their love of money (1 Timothy 6 : 10). Especially and recently, Christians have continued to adopt an ageless view that the world as we know it will soon come to an end in some terrible and ferocious war (the love of money). With all due respect and admiration for the story, I suggest that we are, as always, part of God/dess, and that we ourselves will dictate any eventuality. In other words, it's up to you and me to determine the future–not some apocalyptic prescription of doom crafted by early Christians in a war against Nero (666). The REAL God/dess doesn't work that way, I'd suggest. So who the hell are The Witches that take us away from all of this?

#6: So who the hell are The Witches that take us away from all of this? It would be/has been, suicide, to decouple from the Abrahamic scholors and theology. This is your family, whether you like it or not. For instance, if you are a man, you have been circumcised, correct? Wicca, I suggest, should build upon what we have learned about (who we are and what is our theology as Witches), our responsibility according to God/dess, and that which can not be known (the Ten Thousand things) but is yet to come. We Witches do not have a living document to direct us toward conforming and adopting the desires of The Witches God/dess, right? Wrong. The Witches have the continued contribution of Witches from all over the world, articles, statements, and pleas, and we have the Abrahamic corpus, WHICH IS OURS. Of these, the pleas are heard first by God/dess. Pleas of suffering are the first of all requests to be heard by God/dess, because you were made in their image, and that image did not include suffering. The real history of The Witches is being written RIGHT NOW. THIS IS IT. We have learned from the root, and we carry with us the spirit of of the root, but we depart from it when we are requested to defy it. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, and it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness." The Witches, in my view, are the erudite students of the next chapter of a religious humanity, according to the strict instructions given to us by God/dess and further detailed in contemporary Pagan lititure (The Internet Book of Shadows). Witchcraft is not a history, but a set of tools used by Christians, Moslems, and Jews, to talk to God/dess. Wicca is a new approach to living and understanding ourselves and God/dess that takes into consideration the Abrahamic traditions, but espouses more strict constraints of morality and ethics (See The Charge of the Godess) upon them. The Witches demand more from you than can fit in the eye of a needle.

#7: The Witches demand more from you than can fit in the eye of a needle, so to be clear, you and I are already failures, or, we are expected by God/dess to do much, much, more, in order to make a difference. Embrace that and make it yours, but learn from it. You are the history of The Craft. This/YOU is/are IT. You may not have the vision to see what's about to happen, but I do, bitches. Everything that happened regarding Witchcraft and Gardner's creation of Wicca and the coming-out of Witchcraft is about to be normalized. What's happening RIGHT NOW is going to be the EARLY history of Witchcraft and Wicca. Your attempt to recite vague and scant Pagan dosctin is admirable and shows your faith, but it won't be enough. Doubt that at your own peril. Gardner was absolutely the Father of Modern Witchcraft, such as Witchcraft is a collective set of tools used by Witches to know God/dess, but this isn't about you or me or Gardner. This is about the theology of The Witches, which is grounded in human religious history, which is undoubtably rooted in Abrahamic tradition. If you doubt that, then you're already fucked and wasting your time. There really is nothing new under the sun. Our job as Witches is to refine and detail the new path forward; the path of The Witches. I suggest this will be in Wicca, the relgion, which has no place for hate or war or prejudice, according to The Charge of the Goddess and The Wiccan Rede. Today we have Christian media telling us that we need to prepare for a world war, but that we should invest in gold and stocks that benefit The Love of Money. The Christian media has told us about the 4 Blood Moons, and that they have adopted Pagan theology, astrology, and magickal tools to profit from the fear that they propogate. The truth is that, according to Wiccan theology, you ARE God/dess, and you alone will determine the future. Abrahamic theology is ultimately for The Witches to clarify and, if necessary, redefine in order to provide a truer path forward and a cause more meaningful than apocalyptic death and punishment for "sin." What is real and what is true is life and The Witches effort to support and provide for the living (and those yet unborn). I do not believe The Witches will ever rise to the magnitude of renound that those of the Abrahamic religions have risen (because boots on the ground and the disdain for life among "Wiccans"), but I do believe that we Witches have an even higher function to live up to than expected, and thereby provide nourishment to those destitude and lost. In other words, you may not be pro-life because you are still lost and not found, and so you are certainly not Wiccan, but you may be a Witch which strives to combat suffering, and this is enough. You may not be a Witch because you've decided it's a good idea to burn down buildings, to kill, or contribute to the burning times, but you are still opening the pages of destiny, and The Witches welcome you because love is unconditional as is God/dess, and we are The Witches, and we have faith. Stay hungry.

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Maltesa  that was a very enlightening comment. You've brought up alot of logical points that needed to  come forth. It's a pity you don't speak more due to hurting feelings, but how is one to grow without various weaknesses being pointed out. Thank you, brother. And now I know I can utilize slang if need be.
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Amberhawk said

I'm not sure that is even in question. I believe most people feel the real history is important. I think the real question is, what is the real history?  It needs to be able to track with up with general history and science. Many want to go with lore which is not entirely factual, and trying to figure out which parts are factual can be tricky at best, darn near impossible at worst.  Citing sources is important. So is tracking the sources of those sources. That often gets lost in all this.


I really think the real history of Wicca is being written right this moment. I see the Unitarian Universalist Church, which is this quasi-pagan semi-all faiths approach, and they really are probably the next real step in the history of "Witchcraft" (actually Wicca). And that's because it links to the Abrahamic religions. It's an open door, but, it's clear that the door is embellished with a cross, a Star of David, and a crescent moon. To me, it feels like to get Wicca going (I completely dismiss Witchcraft as a religion, because it's just not, right out of the gate) it will be required to acknowledge the Abrahamic roots. I have no idea how that would look, but I do find it interesting that in the past 10 years, Christian media has picked up on astrology (okay, let's call it the Four Blood Moons) and all sorts of other CLEARLY Pagan motifs. Most of that is related to the End Times Prophecies, which actually gives Wicca (call it Witchcraft if you must) an edge…because guess what…we're all still here and the world didn't end. I dunno…and I'm not smart enough to figure out a pathway forward, and I am certain the path forward is going to require a lot of big brains working together. Bigger than any past Council of Witches and edicts. Okay, RFC.

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Malatesa said

Amberhawk said

I'm not sure that is even in question. I believe most people feel the real history is important. I think the real question is, what is the real history?  It needs to be able to track with up with general history and science. Many want to go with lore which is not entirely factual, and trying to figure out which parts are factual can be tricky at best, darn near impossible at worst.  Citing sources is important. So is tracking the sources of those sources. That often gets lost in all this.


I really think the real history of Wicca is being written right this moment. I see the Unitarian Universalist Church, which is this quasi-pagan semi-all faiths approach, and they really are probably the next real step in the history of "Witchcraft" (actually Wicca). And that's because it links to the Abrahamic religions. It's an open door, but, it's clear that the door is embellished with a cross, a Star of David, and a crescent moon. To me, it feels like to get Wicca going (I completely dismiss Witchcraft as a religion, because it's just not, right out of the gate) it will be required to acknowledge the Abrahamic roots. I have no idea how that would look, but I do find it interesting that in the past 10 years, Christian media has picked up on astrology (okay, let's call it the Four Blood Moons) and all sorts of other CLEARLY Pagan motifs. Most of that is related to the End Times Prophecies, which actually gives Wicca (call it Witchcraft if you must) an edge…because guess what…we're all still here and the world didn't end. I dunno…and I'm not smart enough to figure out a pathway forward, and I am certain the path forward is going to require a lot of big brains working together. Bigger than any past Council of Witches and edicts. Okay, RFC.

This is why it's important to direct people to look at the investigations of it that have already been done. Ronald Hutton goes over general modern paganism and where Wicca and Witchcraft fit in. Philip Heselton did extensive work in learning about Wicca specifically and the people who pulled together and elements used to form it. He has two books on Gardner himself and one on Doreen Valiente. As I understand it he intends to continue writing on the people who helped form it including references for where he gets his information. I regularly direct people to those if they wish to know the real history, then add other authors from there to flesh out and fill holes if they feel there are any.

As for symbols, those have crossed lines and traditions many times over. Christianity wasn't the first to use crosses and stars and they won't be the last. Abrahamic roots go back to more indigenous sources and earlier established religions as well. Passing ideas back and forth isn't abnormal or unusual in any case. I won't get into end time prophecies because every religion has it's fringe group that passes those around… non or which seem to pan out. Fatalists have away of seeping into every religion in time. Give Wicca another 100 years and I'm sure there will be a sect of them too if there isn't already hiding in the shadows somewhere. It takes time, a lot of time and real effort to sort through history, and a lot of understanding on how religion, politics and social influencing affect the mess. When we think we've learned the real history someone uncovers something that shifts the whole thing. Give it  time.


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No matter what you are into knowing the history is both important and rewarding.In some ways it is almost necessary to know the history and to read about practitioners from our past.I am not sure what was meant by "The Real History" I didn't know there was a fake history.Why would I waste my time with a history that is fabricated?Still this is a valid question and I thank you for allowing me to share my opinion.
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Is it "important?" Maybe not as much as it could be. I'm more interested in its current state and even more so in its future. I do love story time, however.
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Amberhawk said

Malatesa said

Amberhawk said

I'm not sure that is even in question. I believe most people feel the real history is important. I think the real question is, what is the real history?  It needs to be able to track with up with general history and science. Many want to go with lore which is not entirely factual, and trying to figure out which parts are factual can be tricky at best, darn near impossible at worst.  Citing sources is important. So is tracking the sources of those sources. That often gets lost in all this.


I really think the real history of Wicca is being written right this moment. I see the Unitarian Universalist Church, which is this quasi-pagan semi-all faiths approach, and they really are probably the next real step in the history of "Witchcraft" (actually Wicca). And that's because it links to the Abrahamic religions. It's an open door, but, it's clear that the door is embellished with a cross, a Star of David, and a crescent moon. To me, it feels like to get Wicca going (I completely dismiss Witchcraft as a religion, because it's just not, right out of the gate) it will be required to acknowledge the Abrahamic roots. I have no idea how that would look, but I do find it interesting that in the past 10 years, Christian media has picked up on astrology (okay, let's call it the Four Blood Moons) and all sorts of other CLEARLY Pagan motifs. Most of that is related to the End Times Prophecies, which actually gives Wicca (call it Witchcraft if you must) an edge…because guess what…we're all still here and the world didn't end. I dunno…and I'm not smart enough to figure out a pathway forward, and I am certain the path forward is going to require a lot of big brains working together. Bigger than any past Council of Witches and edicts. Okay, RFC.

This is why it's important to direct people to look at the investigations of it that have already been done. Ronald Hutton goes over general modern paganism and where Wicca and Witchcraft fit in. Philip Heselton did extensive work in learning about Wicca specifically and the people who pulled together and elements used to form it. He has two books on Gardner himself and one on Doreen Valiente. As I understand it he intends to continue writing on the people who helped form it including references for where he gets his information. I regularly direct people to those if they wish to know the real history, then add other authors from there to flesh out and fill holes if they feel there are any.

As for symbols, those have crossed lines and traditions many times over. Christianity wasn't the first to use crosses and stars and they won't be the last. Abrahamic roots go back to more indigenous sources and earlier established religions as well. Passing ideas back and forth isn't abnormal or unusual in any case. I won't get into end time prophecies because every religion has it's fringe group that passes those around… non or which seem to pan out. Fatalists have away of seeping into every religion in time. Give Wicca another 100 years and I'm sure there will be a sect of them too if there isn't already hiding in the shadows somewhere. It takes time, a lot of time and real effort to sort through history, and a lot of understanding on how religion, politics and social influencing affect the mess. When we think we've learned the real history someone uncovers something that shifts the whole thing. Give it  time.




Amberhawk would you say that the history of Wicca is just starting? I know that's not very well put, but, even though Wicca, as we know it, started with Gardner, would you say it's fair to say that the "history" of Wicca has only just begun?

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Wendigo said

Is it "important?" Maybe not as much as it could be. I'm more interested in its current state and even more so in its future. I do love story time, however.

I think that's the thing for me, too. I'm a structuralist, so to speak, and I would like to nail down EVERYTHING, so that it has a clear and defined. Well, the world isn't that simple, obviously. It just seems to me that we should be able to move forward with a unified system. Right now, it feels like there's some loose ends that need to be considered. Namely, "An Ye Harm None."

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Malatesa said


Amberhawk would you say that the history of Wicca is just starting? I know that's not very well put, but, even though Wicca, as we know it, started with Gardner, would you say it's fair to say that the "history" of Wicca has only just begun?

I would say as a religion it is only beginning, but saying it's history is just beginning is an odd choice of words that makes it sound like it's already over. As a future religion I think it is only  just beginning. I would like to hope it keeps as close to it's original pattern as it grows but it seems to be growing into a warped and distorted version of itself and losing it's core in the process.
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Sorry, was a double post.
 
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My answer is not on the poll... the Akashik records hold all you need to know. All else is hearsay?
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MalaTesa oct14 post= quote signs~

I stopped reading after like 4 but you seem converted from christian to wiccan…but to sum things up, atheism is too much of a religion for me to believe in [if you don't get it, don't try. It'll just confuse you.] I'm probably a rare breed of growing up in this freedom of christianity society without ever have being monotheistic or atheist because I've seen creatures (solid, invisible, etc) so never had the luxury of not knowing about non-human entities…. in other words, "I don't see dead people, but I've seen lots of other beings… it's not about religion in the end, it's about which faction(s) you wanna hang out with when you escape earth realm
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